The Mid-Life Money Reset (Season 2 Eps 9)

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[00:00:25] DANIEL: Are the very barriers that hinder maturity in our forties and fifties. Big thanks to our sponsor. Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over $45. At bulk nutrients.com au just enter the code space makers,

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[00:00:48] DANIEL: Hi, this is Daniel.

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[00:00:58] MATT: We are. It's fantastic [00:01:00] to be here as always. Yeah. Penultimate. I love it when you get a chance to use that word. I know. It's a good word, isn't it?

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[00:01:27] DANIEL: And every type of habit shift is hard. It fits. It fits. Within our broader season topic, which is how to make space for life's inevitable resets and how the habits and practices that set us up for success in our 20s and 30s often need to be rethought and unlearned in our midlife squeeze.

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[00:01:47] MATT: And to be honest with you, this, I'm really interested in this particular topic about how even with money and finances, that stuff has to be unlearned because I found it, don't know about you, but I found it pretty counterintuitive.

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[00:02:02] DANIEL: So it'll be good to bring these to air, particularly because you and I have such different money personalities or at least money mindsets. from the way we approach things. We are a little different. We are a little different. That's right. So when we were thinking about money and the midlife reset, I was thinking about a picture book I had as a young boy.

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[00:02:53] DANIEL: I just like

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[00:02:54] DANIEL: know, I know. He's great. He looks a bit like you actually, Matt. But then you had this awesome character, [00:03:00] the ants, you know, they were Taipei, responsible, hardworking like firstborn sons, you know, and, uh, and they worked hard and all summer they would be slaving away, collecting food and the grasshopper in my Aesop favorite book made fun of these.

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[00:03:50] DANIEL: smug's

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[00:03:55] DANIEL: The funny thing is, actually, in my book, my mum, being a good postmodern mum, [00:04:00] didn't like the ending. Because in the ending, in my actual book, the grasshopper died a lonely, sad, starving death. Not so good for kids books. So she typed up an alternative ending where the ants were compassionate on the grasshopper.

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[00:04:35] DANIEL: It's to save for the future, and then you'll set yourself up for a healthy life. And I must admit, I think that book and other messages like it have really shaped me so much. I can see the trajectory. I can see it. Yeah, yeah. And it's nice. And it's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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[00:04:58] MATT: Well, only

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[00:05:21] DANIEL: But, but that's been very helpful for me. And yet what's interesting as you and I have reflected on the mid, midterms, the midterms Life reset. There is a point where delaying gratification stops being healthy. Yeah. And where actually we need to flip our money mindset from being an ant to a grasshopper if that's how we've been wired, or potentially flip our money mindset.

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[00:05:58] MATT: yeah. So Dan, I got this [00:06:00] fantastic quote by this beautiful elderly nun called Joan Chidester.

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[00:06:22] MATT: Both of them are liberating.

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[00:06:39] MATT: Probably one of those things where either you voluntarily let go or to some degree you have stuff forcibly, taken away from you.

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[00:07:02] MATT: And that's what we're going to talk about. Brilliant. So as usual, we want to check in with people and with each other about how we went with the exercises that we set last episode. So you may recall we had two. So it was like, there were two options depending upon your age and your stage. So for people in that kind of younger adult phase of life, We ask people to to concentrate on developing and thinking about rare and valuable skills that are going to set them up For a meaningful career and that's going to involve deliberate practice.

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[00:07:54] MATT: But how'd you go for starters?

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[00:08:18] DANIEL: I've just. had my head above water. When I do think about it, this week and the next two weeks are super busy, but then I'm taking my son away to Queensland for 10 days and we're going to do a rite of passage retreat. We're going to go whitewater rafting and snorkel the Great Barrier Reef together. So I'm in part, I'm frantic now because there's a greater yes that's happening and That'll be a good time to make space in line with my values and wanting to connect.

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[00:08:49] MATT: Mate, look, I appreciate your vulnerability, Dan. And it's good to just, I suppose, emphasize this is a safe space. So I appreciate, again, like, yeah, it's Good for you being, I really dig [00:09:00] your authenticity. Excellent. And we can also edit this in the future if we need to.

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[00:09:23] MATT: You know what I mean? It just wasn't going to be, even if I had the time on my calendar, my headspace would not be there. It'd just be too, too distracted. So what I did, and this is partly because I was motivated by just assuming that you were actually going to have done it. I thought, okay, I've got to give Dan something.

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[00:09:46] DANIEL: accountability in season three. Mm hmm. No, that sounds good. Look, the reality is making space is hard in the midlife squeeze.

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[00:10:13] DANIEL: But before we get into a, like a theoretical framework. The reality is money's tough, right? It's hard to navigate finances and make hard choices in the midlife squeeze, which is why we want to talk about money. Yeah. Yeah. And you and I struggle in different ways. Yeah. Like I was thinking, you know, what are the pressures on me?

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[00:10:47] DANIEL: I didn't have kids. I didn't have a mortgage. And, you know, in some ways, money decisions were pretty simple because all I had to do was, I don't know, I want to save for this, you Backpack. I want to save for my first car. You know, eventually I want [00:11:00] to save a deposit for a house. So the goal was to save a bit more than I spent.

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[00:11:28] DANIEL: We're lucky. We have a a low mortgage, but even still I've got orthodontics for three kids, I've got private school fees, the boys eat me out of house and home. Yeah. And I wish they would just eat Weet Bix, but they want more expensive stuff. So like, when I look at how much we spend, we're like, oh wow, I just have to earn a lot of money just to get by in this season with, kids and power and all that kind of stuff.

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[00:12:14] DANIEL: But once that window shrinks, then your options for using your money well and investing significantly shrinks with it. So I feel like I have one more window left where I can actually invest in a way that sets me up for the future. So I'm thinking about my future self and the money I have for that rainy day when the grasshopper gets kind of cold and hungry, but at the same time, I'm also really super aware that time is running out in terms of.

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[00:13:01] DANIEL: Do you know what I mean? Like these kinds of experiences cost money, which we probably could put aside for the future. But then I'm going to lose my ability to experience really meaningful moments with my kids or friends right now, when I'm healthy, when they're connected with us. Does that make sense? So, so there's this tension with how do I spend money to build experiences now when those experiences might not be available?

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[00:13:42] DANIEL: who are teens is probably the most expensive time of life. And so I have to make money choices in that midlife squeeze. And I think that's the same with most of us in different situations.

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[00:14:00] MATT: So again, I've got, I've got kids who are getting older. One's 14 and one's 11. So they're not, you know, they're not too far away from becoming young adults. I've got in laws and parents who are also elderly. So that's kind of like coming into play as well. So I feel that tension between, you know, on the one hand, um, I'd like to be a bit more financially independent and squared away, but I'm also super aware of the time crunch.

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[00:14:41] MATT: That was it. Like, that's all, that's all I wanted, you know, that's all I wanted. I am certainly, I think like, again, reflecting on my own experience, I'm just like a kind of like a, a lucky, a lucky unconscious grasshopper. So, and I think it's important to like to say some of this stuff. Cause again, I really want to keep it realistic and so much of my.

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[00:15:23] MATT: We had our accommodation paid for because of my wife's job, which is fantastic. I had a car, so that was great. She was getting paid in Australian dollars back then. But again, her end of the deal meant that we had the roof over our head for nothing. And I was earning pounds doing like casual, casual social work there in the justice system.

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[00:15:51] MATT: So it gets to like our first. big step out of our holiday. It was the Contiki tour on a bus. And it was like, literally we jumped on the bus with a bunch of [00:16:00] strangers on, you know, Friday morning and we're in Paris by Friday night. Don't know anyone. And we're at this Parisian bar and we've got, you know, all this money and my wife, cause she's a bit more, I'd say a very responsible.

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[00:16:26] MATT: And then the next morning we come back through the bank account and I've like depleted virtually half of all the money that we had budgeted. for this trip. And the point of that story is to say, it's not because I was conscious at all thinking, you know, this would be a really smart strategic social move.

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[00:16:57] MATT: So you got lucky. Yeah, that's right. Right. [00:17:00] Yeah. Cool. A lot. call it serendipity, call it like what you will. It's, and it's really important when it comes to talking about money that you can plan and you can have an attitude and you can have a strategy, but so much of it, a fair chunk of it, I think is still beyond our immediate control and comes a lot down to kind of circumstances.

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[00:17:23] DANIEL: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In fact, when we were talking about the fact that I'm concerned about the future and how I'll save for super and how I'll maybe provide for my kids, you're like, I don't think about that at all.

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[00:17:33] MATT: about it more now, to be honest with you, because of, because of the kids. Okay. And because of that, I can't ignore that. Shrinking time window that you talked about before, I know that is a hard and fast reality coming my way. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we've

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[00:17:45] MATT: But I'm not, again, like I'm not, I'm not, I'm seriously not considering it a likely prospect. I will come knocking on your door, penniless and friendless when I'm like 60 saying, Dan, Dan, I've seen the error in my ways. I repent, please let me in. Like that's not

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[00:18:10] DANIEL: Alright Matt, so look, we want to talk about some of the theory and some of the ideas about how you make a flip from, let's say, being a saver to a spender, from saving to dissaving in your midlife squeeze, and the book that's informed this conversation most has been Die With Zero by Bill Perkins, which I didn't really like, you liked more, but they, it does have some great ideas.

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[00:19:08] DANIEL: So much so that most people who have that type of mindset end up dying with way too much, when it's much more sensible to die with zero, which is the purpose of the book, to give it away, to spend it, to give your inheritance early, rather than actually waiting until you pass away. So tell me about the book.

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[00:19:31] MATT: look to, to be fair, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, it's hard to argue with because the guy is like largely data driven, right? And everything that he kind of promotes consistent with his worldview. So he puts a lot of emphasis on, I guess, experiences.

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[00:20:05] MATT: He puts a lot of cash on that.

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[00:20:18] MATT: great. So, so it's good to acknowledge all that. It's also good to acknowledge that he's, he's like talking for some pretty rarefied air.

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[00:20:39] DANIEL: So this is where he lost me. Yeah. You're not a Natalie Merchant fan or what? Yeah. It was just the Natalie Merchant thing. No. He lost me where I don't think he acknowledged how. Much of an outlier. He is, you know, it was speaking to people who are just crazy wealthy where in my mind, it's a whole lot easier to start thinking about divesting your wealth when you've got [00:21:00] enough, whereas you and I aren't aren't in that position.

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[00:21:20] MATT: goes down.

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[00:21:45] MATT: But the thing that I liked and appreciated most about the book is that he does this great job of kind of saying, you can kind of, there's a lens through which you can view your through really, you know, zero to a hundred years old. Right. And that lens involves like quantifying your life in via [00:22:00] three different areas, and these three different areas are always going to be in play and they're always going to be connected to each other.

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[00:22:25] DANIEL: Yeah, I remember he had triangles, so he said when you're in your twenties and thirties, the triangle skewed towards time. Yeah. So you've got more free time and health. Yeah. Health and time, right? But the money's fairly low. You hit your midlife and it A triangle because health, money, and time are all squeezed, essentially.

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[00:22:44] DANIEL: But there is this kind of, and this is the experience that you and I are having, that we're right in this kind of squeeze where we have to address our health, we have to address time, we have to address finances. And the, the interplay. Based on our values and personality is really hard.

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[00:23:18] DANIEL: You cannot have once your health declines Yes, and most wealthy people over save.

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[00:23:27] DANIEL: and I think it explains why I find well why we find money hard in the midlife because you're juggling lots of different things.

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[00:23:57] DANIEL: So what he's saying is the majority of people who have [00:24:00] saved well, end up dying with like hundreds of thousands of dollars of super leftover. And then they give their kids their inheritance when the kids are like, In their mid sixties, now, by the time you're in your mid sixties, you probably don't really need the money.

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[00:24:28] MATT: Exactly. That's it. As opposed to your sixties.

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[00:24:32] DANIEL: why save perpetually when you can actually be such a gift to your family or likewise What if you were to give to charities early when they really need the money and be part of the experience of seeing how that money could change their lives. So there's really tough interplay of, you need to save enough, so you've got enough, but you don't want to over save.

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[00:25:05] DANIEL: And, and we, we, we value that tremendously. So I'd, I'd love to be able to have that point where I divest wealth earlier rather than wait until I, I cock it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It's, it's, it's a gift. It's a gift. So lots of theory, but what does it mean for you? Does it change any of the way that Mr.

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[00:25:27] MATT: It's, it's certainly, it's, Uh, how do I say this? I think that like to some degree, it's an act of almost faith to perhaps think that you don't need, that you won't need so much money later on in life because there's that, there is like to be honest, that element of fear that's thinking, man, I just got to prepare for that rainy day.

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[00:26:05] MATT: So you just don't need as much money. And particularly if you're kind of fortunate enough to live in a country like ours with a good health system, a bunch of that stuff will kind of get looked after as well. So for me, yeah, for me, I've, I still battle a little bit to think, okay, it's okay. It's okay.

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[00:26:43] DANIEL: And look, we'll get practical in that last section that we're going to lead, but I just think it's a complex interplay because there are a lot of listeners who don't have enough supra and actually will need to save a lot more. You know, the stats show that a vast majority of Australians don't have enough supra and we underestimate [00:27:00] how much we'll need, particularly if the health system crashes and things like that.

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[00:27:13] MATT: Yeah, that's it. The big takeaway for me, I can't afford to ignore it. I can't afford to put it in the too hard basket.

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[00:27:20] DANIEL: quotes. Love to. These are both from Bill Perkins, Die With Zero. He says, If you want to die with zero and make the most of whatever health you have at every point in your lifetime, You will need to spend more in your fifties than in your sixties and more in your sixties than in your seventies, let alone your eighties and nineties.

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[00:27:49] MATT: it just seems so, it sounds like counterintuitive, but he makes a good case. And speaking of experiences, so, and experiential dividends, this is like a, like, this is the start of a good definition.

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[00:28:17] MATT: Love it.

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[00:28:32] DANIEL: Mindset and habit based money shift and that is super hard and this is where it fits really well with our overarching season theme that the habits that set you up in your twenties and thirties need to be unlearned and flipped over when you're in your midlife. And money is the same.

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[00:28:52] MATT: Embrace the violin. And be a bit more chilled out. So I'm really keen, I'm sure people at home are as well, to hear about like [00:29:00] how, how's it going? How are you actually like, what are some of the practical steps you're taking to try to achieve?

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[00:29:12] DANIEL: Do you know what I mean? Like, it sounds ridiculous, but I mean, that, that is the shift. So I, um, so there are a few things. I mean, some big ticket items. We, we went overseas last year, spent a ton of money, and had one of the best experiences of our life as a family. You know, the kids still talk about it. I know it was one of those kind of amazing experiences we had in the Solomon Islands.

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[00:29:55] DANIEL: Everyone out to a drink but it felt great and I was like, I'm so grateful. I've got [00:30:00] the wealth to do that And so I'm practicing that because I believe in friendship and I want to invest in friends I'm taking the kids bowling and we're going out to dinner sometimes, you know, like where it's gonna help with connection and relationships So that's spending money where that matters And I'm spending money on good hotels when I travel.

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[00:30:33] DANIEL: Uh, we eat at home almost exclusively because that's good for, you know, you get healthy food and it's, it's cheaper. Uh, I drive a 1998 Camry. You know, I've got the shittiest car on the street and I'll keep driving it until it breaks down. So in that sense, like, I'm, I'm still saving and being thoughtful about where we hold money back in order to, keep investing in the future, but at the same time, I'm trying to loosen the strings.

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[00:31:16] DANIEL: And the good thing is actually I get to draw on my wife because she's always been more of a spender and she's drawn on me for helping us save and get into a better position but now I need to lean on her to learn to actually practice being more relaxed with money and enjoying it. Yeah,

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[00:31:30] MATT: It's good. Yeah, which is good. So, let's, uh, wrap up this section with a final quote from Perkins book. He writes, The psychological shift from savings mode to spending mode won't be easy. Changing one's deeply entrenched habits never is. If you spend all your life as a good, solid, and committed saver, it's hard to suddenly shift gears and start doing just the opposite.

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[00:31:55] DANIEL: Old habits die hard. Yeah. Mr. Grasshopper.

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[00:33:12] DANIEL: All right. So hopefully that's been helpful to have some time to think and reflect on your money mindsets, uh, and your habits, no matter where you are in life right now. Let's get practical. We thought we'd finish with a few, I don't know, tidbits of wisdom knowing that we're not financial advisors, but this is stuff that's been helpful for us from what we've read.

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[00:33:54] DANIEL: You know, how do you build wealth? And, you know, they pick the obvious ones. Well, get a good job, so [00:34:00] earn money, so the tap turns on. Uh, and spend less than you earn. You know, that, that makes sense. Uh, but I said, you've missed the big one. Uh, and this is, this is really important. And it's to put downward pressure on your desires.

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[00:34:41] DANIEL: No, that's, that's their base level, uh, that's just to service their debt. You know, and they're constantly stressed with money, they would need eight hundred thousand a year just to kind of not feel like they're always behind. That type of money is like, So different from what I earn and that makes sense.

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[00:35:33] DANIEL: because they've managed to keep a downward pressure on their desires. And they invest in friendships. They invest in holidays still, but they, they know what they value and they don't worry so much about money. Hmm.

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[00:35:57] MATT: If I, if the blanket recommendation is to kind of [00:36:00] down pressure my desires. Eventually I want to kind of distort that into self flagellation to the point where I break and just go completely 110ks in the opposite direction of probably being super excessive. Yeah. So I like the idea of bringing it back to clarifying and a bit like we talked about last season, particularly Great.

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[00:36:34] MATT: If you can get a handle on that, then I think it's okay. It's almost like you've got an outlet and permission to direct funds. and money towards that and to kind of feel wealthy in that sphere whilst at the same time turning down other particular outlets.

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[00:36:52] DANIEL: Like I said, what I'm not saying is it should always act like you're a poor 20 year old student when you're suddenly earning, you know, 200, 000 a year. [00:37:00] That, that's kind of unusual. But I'm saying that as your income increases, don't automatically increase your desires and needs in line with it. Because if you do, you'll always be broke and you'll always want more.

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[00:37:35] DANIEL: So, it's just being aware that there's a psychological component and not to always want more. So, I think we're saying the same thing in that sense. Oh, I wouldn't believe that. So, uh, so Matt, why don't we shoot for the second principle?

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[00:38:02] MATT: And I remember years and years and years ago, like I read this great book called Are You Money Or Your Life? And again, this is, it had a, had a pretty profound effect on me, obviously, like I haven't kind of implemented it enough, but the author's big point was that you can really translate it. Every, you know, every minute that you work.

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[00:38:38] MATT: And I've seen there's a whole gamut. So there's basically a continuum. You've got people who advocate giving every single dollar that you earn, um, A home. So you know exactly where your time translated into money has gone. Okay, so like true

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[00:38:51] MATT: Yeah, true budgeting, yeah. The next extreme over here is like say, you know, Scott Pate, the barefoot investor, he talks about buckets.

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[00:39:14] MATT: And also Scott Paid. They say that you take your entire income and you basically, I think, chop it into say three sections or three broad categories of buckets. And one of those buckets will be necessary expenses. So that's one bucket. So the, maybe that's like say 60 percent of your income and then maybe devote say 20 percent of your income to say splurging.

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[00:39:41] DANIEL: that makes sense. And the point of buckets and I would do something similar, not exactly those buckets, but we have four or five different buckets and the point is when I receive my income, I automatically divert.

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[00:40:07] MATT: of, it's great.

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[00:40:21] MATT: I can't do that consistently as well, but I can make the bucket system kind of work. Like that's enough. That's enough intentionality and consciousness without it breaking me. That's sustainable. Absolutely. But like the big point of all that, I think is that like, whilst it can seem a bit onerous, it can sound onerous at first glance to think, well, I have to have some kind of system, whether it's every dollar gets a home or some buckets.

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[00:40:47] DANIEL: So the first principle is to down pressure your desires essentially to practice having enough rather than always needing more.

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[00:41:09] DANIEL: Even if you're an and, and even if you're trying to save, to build in a habit right from the beginning of giving a percentage of your income away, and I'm a big fan of giving percentages, just like I'm a big fan of saving percentages. I remember hearing a talk once from, you know, a motivational speaker and they said, I think the aim in life with money is to be a millionaire.

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[00:41:48] DANIEL: That wouldn't it be cool if I could give a million dollars away by the time I die? Yeah. As, and that is kind of a true millionaire, do you know what I mean? So I've always, so as part of that, you know, I've always saved 10 percent of my income and [00:42:00] I've always given 10 percent of my income. It's always been something I've done from like when I was an ice cream driver and as my income has increased.

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[00:42:48] MATT: So I think every time you give like that, it's almost like a small act of faith in the sense that you're, you're actually trusting that you don't need to grasp and grab and maintain and keep [00:43:00] every bit of income stream or wealth. That crosses your path, you know, that you're going to be okay. You don't need it all, you're going to be okay.

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[00:43:09] DANIEL: So my advice, I suppose, is to give as a percentage, just like you save as a percentage and don't wait until you have enough to start giving.

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[00:43:39] MATT: If you're in your 20s particularly, what we'd like you to do is get, is to grab a thousand dollars as soon as you can and invest it. So like invest it in a super or shares. So again, doing this early in life will give you the benefit of compounding interest over time. So whether you got to sell stuff, put some stuff on gum [00:44:00] tree, get rid of that drum kit that's been lying around the house for far too long.

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[00:44:10] DANIEL: There are two things on that. One, it's really helpful just to have something in the bank. So to get that first thousand and to let's say put it into super or shares or something where you're getting compound interest.

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[00:44:39] MATT: Early. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But what about if you're again, like in that kind of classic midlife squeeze, like more like us, forties, maybe even fifties, our exercise, our challenge for you is really think and consider an activity or an experience that you'd like to have that is going to be, Time bound as in if you keep on delaying and postponing that, chances [00:45:00] are because of time or health, you won't be able to actually undertake it.

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[00:45:10] DANIEL: So that sounds good. And like, Like, we always do have an action trigger, so if you're someone who, you know, wants to save 1, 000 and actually build that habit of saving, well, what is your plan?

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[00:45:38] DANIEL: When will you put time aside? You know, start planning that change as soon as possible. Yeah. Like always, Matt, I think one of the big shifts that happen in midlife around money, So we talk about being generative and really the big flip in midlife is to go from it being about you to being about others.

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[00:46:21] DANIEL: Does that make sense? So it's about making, using money as a tool to actually build community, build relationships, and actually invest something in the world.

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[00:46:40] MATT: Divesting and it being natural. There's just something about the life cycle that again, it involves deaccumulating with time. And I think there's a lot to be said for almost embracing that voluntarily, rather than being in this position where it's going to be like your health, perhaps, and like your sphere of activities.

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[00:47:13] DANIEL: Alright, so Matt, our last episode of season two comes up next week. We are our post

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[00:47:18] DANIEL: our post penultimate. So we are exploring what it looks like to invest in your inner life to make the shift from maybe more of an outer life, being a doer to more of an inner life. Um, I'm going to talk about the three stages of faith, uh, according to the research and finish with some of our reflections about what you and I have learned by maybe having this counseling session in midlife in front of thousands of people.

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[00:48:07] DANIEL: See ya.

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[00:48:11] DANIEL: Big thanks to our sponsor, Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5 percent discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over 45 at bulknutrients. com. au. Just enter the code

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[00:48:34] PROMO V/O: Visit PrioritySamurai. com for free videos to help you become a Priority Samurai. Until next time, make space.